Energy deposit, relativistic rise in B4

I checked energy deposit of an e, mu and proton using B4c. A plot below shows energy deposit vs momentum when a particle pass 1 cm scintillator.
It seems that the deposit by the electron is less, which is similar to the muon. Actually, it should be on Fermi Plateau and should be larger than muon.

It seems I can not see relativistic rise in the muon as well, the relativistic rise must be observed… a material I’m using is strange ?? If anyone know the probable reason why I can not see it, pls tell me …
If someone can do a cross-check, I will very happy…

I updated the pic. when closely looking around Edep=2, there is a small dip for the muon ~ 1.8 and it is rising to 2, on the other hand, it is constantly 2 for the electron. Is this what I wanna observe as de/dx??

I’m just observing ionization loss ? I do not see radiation loss??

Best regards.

looks no radiation (Bremstrahlung) loss??
or, I misunderstand something ?
Any comments are very helpful for me.
Best regards.

Example TestEm0 (in extended/electromagnetic) prints the different contributions to dE/dx.
The values given in literature correspond to unrestricted dE/dx.
Em0.mac.txt (306 Bytes)

TestEm18 prints and plots " total energy lost by incident particle" (dE4) and “total energy deposit” (dE6).
Em18.mac.txt (482 Bytes)

dE4 - dE6 is leakage, which is also printed in TestEm5
Em5.mac.txt (570 Bytes)

I attach picture of Em5 and plots of Em18 :


Thank you for the comments, it’s nice step for me to solve my question! Using “TestEm0” I injected muon of 0.5GeV, 10 GeV, and 10TeV to see relativistic effect. Outputs are following.

When looking info, restricted dE/dx are same, I can not see relativistic effect. 1.677 and 1.688, 1.689 MeV*cm2/g

But, unrestricted dE/dx gives it probably, which is probably what I want to get.Is this correct?? 1.97521, 2.421, and 26.70 MeV*cm2/g

What the difference, and definition of both? Do you know it? I would like to get unrestricted dE/dx as my energy deposit and use it in my “B4c”. Is it possible?? I’ll also check code by myself.

 mu- (500 MeV) in Polystyrene (density: 1.05 g/cm3 ;   radiation length: 41.7102 cm )

  processes :             muIoni		      muBrems		   muPairProd		        total

  restricted dE/dx   :   1.7611 MeV/cm       0 eV/cm       0 eV/cm         1.7611 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    :   1.67724 MeV*cm2/g   0 eV*cm2/g    0  eV*cm2/g     1.67724 MeV*cm2/g
 
  unrestricted dE/dx :   2.07397 MeV/cm      0 eV/cm       0 eV/cm         2.07397 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    : 	 1.97521 MeV*cm2/g   0  eV*cm2/g   0  eV*cm2/g     1.97521 MeV*cm2/g

 mu- (10 GeV) in Polystyrene (density: 1.05 g/cm3 ;   radiation length: 41.7102 cm )

  restricted dE/dx   :  1.773 MeV/cm      0.003521 eV/cm     0 eV/cm        1.7734 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    :  1.689 MeV*cm2/g   0.003354 eV*cm2/g  0 eV*cm2/g     1.68895 MeV*cm2/g
 
  unrestricted dE/dx :  2.5343 MeV/cm     4.246 keV/cm      4.058 keV/cm     2.54264 MeV/cm
  (MeV/g/cm2)        :  2.4136 MeV*cm2/g  4.044 keV*cm2/g   3.865 keV*cm2/g  2.42156 MeV*cm2/g

 mu- (10 TeV) 

  restricted dE/dx   :   1.77425 MeV/cm    0.00352 eV/cm     0 eV/cm 	    1.77425 MeV/cm
  (MeV/g/cm2)        :   1.68976 MeV*cm2/g 0.00335 eV*cm2/g  0 eV*cm2/g     1.68976 MeV*cm2/g
 
  unrestricted dE/dx :   3.37969 MeV/cm    10.362 MeV/cm     14.30 MeV/cm    28.0426 MeV/cm
  (MeV/g/cm2)       :    3.21875 MeV*cm2/g  9.8692 MeV*cm2/g 13.62 MeV*cm2/g 26.7072 MeV*cm2/g

muon_poly_0.5GeV_10.0GeV.txt (3.6 KB)

@24/Jan. added
But, ionization only is increased, is this a bit strange?? I should check it by changing energy more. I should not use large value for /run/setCut ? as illustrated in my next reply ??

@24/Jan. added
I added 10 TeV muon above

@24/Jan. added
mu- in water, 0.5GeV, 10GeV, and 10TeV (TestEm0)

  processes :                          muIoni       muBrems     muPairProd    total
  
  restricted dE/dx (same for each) :  1.74278 MeV/cm  0.00495107 eV/cm  0 eV/cm  1.74278 MeV/cm
 
  unrestricted dE/dx : 2.0277 MeV/cm     0 eV/cm          0 eV/cm            2.0277 MeV/cm
  unrestricted dE/dx : 2.49278 MeV/cm    5.01924 keV/cm    4.8702 keV/cm     2.50267 MeV/cm
  unrestricted dE/dx : 3.32381 MeV/cm    12.0263 MeV/cm    16.6545 MeV/cm    32.0047 MeV/cm

@ 24 Jan.
I also checked Edepo of mu- in water w/ TestEm18

 The run was 1000000 mu- of 10 TeV through 1 cm  of Water (density: 1 g/cm3 )
 TrackLength= 1 cm 	 nb of steps= 2.0268  stepSize= 4.9338 mm 

 d-rays  : eLoss/primary= 17.921 MeV	  nb of d-rays= 1.0297  <Tkin>= 17.404 MeV  Tmin= 40.242 keV  Tmax= 824.07 GeV
 gamma   : eLoss/primary= 30.461 MeV	  nb of gammas= 3.5e-05  <Tkin>= 870.32 GeV  Tmin= 1.6481 keV  Tmax= 8.806 TeV
 deposit : eLoss/primary= 1.6211 MeV	 <dEcut > table= 1.6211 MeV   ---> simul/reference= 1
 total   : eLoss/primary= 50.003 MeV	 <dEfull> table= 50.003 MeV   ---> simul/reference= 1

Total energy loss is 50 MeV, a bit different from the one w/ TestEm0. When I checked “KEY: TH1D h3;1 total energy lost by primary track”, the mean is 2.146 MeV … Why …

1- It is enough to set cut “infinite” , eg. cut = 1 km
2- see 2 references at the beginning of Readme of TestEm18
( In the tutorial, chapter ionisation )

Thank you for your quick response.

I checked Edepo while changing /run/setCut X m, results are shown below. Edepo is relatively following formula. I can see radiation loss?

But, I found large transition from 3.3 m to 3.4 m in Polystyrene. In fact, when using Argon gas, for instance, the Edepo does not follow the formula again… Is this an optimization parameter? Everyone do this kind of optimization?

I also did simulation in water to check consistency with what I got for mu above:
“energy deposit of mu- in water for 0.5GeV, 10GeV, and 10TeV
2.0277, 2.50267, 32.0047 MeV/cm”

Below is what I got as Edepo with “B4c”
It seems I can see muIoni only and ca not see muBrems or muPairProd (even with /process/activate muBrems)?? Why, I’m confusing…

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@ 25. Jan.
It seems that energy cut does not change (there is maximum limit) at some point as follows. Therefore, above 10 GeV bremsstrahlung, ionisation and e+e- pair production are not handled for Edepo (e.g. step->GetTotalEnergyDeposit() ) ??

Index : 1     used in the geometry : Yes
 Material : Water
 Range cuts        :  gamma  1 km     e-  1 km     e+  1 km  proton 1 km 
 Energy thresholds :  gamma  10 GeV    e-  10 GeV    e+  10 GeV proton 100 GeV
 Region(s) which use this couple : 
    DefaultRegionForTheWorld


Index : 1     used in the geometry : Yes
 Material : Water
 Range cuts        :  gamma  10 m      e-  10 m      e+  10 m   proton 10 m  
 Energy thresholds :  gamma  10 GeV    e-  10 GeV    e+  10 GeV proton 1 GeV
 Region(s) which use this couple : 
    DefaultRegionForTheWorld

But, there is mantion that " It is therefore necessary to implement a production cut so that all particles below it are not generated, but their energy is accounted as energy deposited."
Energy is accounted, but I can not see it. I do not understand this point at all…

(I withdrew another one, and go back to here.)

If someone know below topic, please tell me.
Best regards.

Edepo in Ar gus looks fine w/ default settings.
One in water and polystyrene are a bit strange…?

At least, TestEm0, which is not a simulator, is considering energy loss by eBrems and seems to give Bethe-Bloch distribution in water.

"
B4c can not look G4EmCalculator? can not look PhysicsTables??

##### e- (10 MeV) in Water (density: 1 g/cm3 ;   radiation length: 36.0924 cm )

 Range cuts : 	 gamma        1 mm 	 e-        1 mm 
 Energy cuts : 	 gamma  2.93991 keV	 e-  349.408 keV
  Max_energy _transferable  : 5 MeV (2.53535 cm )

  processes :                	        eIoni		        eBrem		        total
  compCrossSectionPerVolume : 0.236486 cm^-1     0.285367 cm^-1	     0.521853 cm^-1
  cross section per volume : 0.236485 cm^-1	      0.28527 cm^-1	     0.521755 cm^-1
  cross section per mass   : 23.6485 mm2/g 	       28.527 mm2/g 	      52.1755 mm2/g 
 
   restricted dE/dx         : 1.73377 MeV/cm      101.039 eV/cm 	      1.73387 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)          : 1.73377 MeV*cm2/g    101.039  eV*cm2/g	      1.73387 MeV*cm2/g
 
  unrestricted dE/dx       : 1.99147 MeV/cm	      181.698 keV/cm	      2.17317 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)          : 1.99147 MeV*cm2/g   181.698 keV*cm2/g	      2.17317 MeV*cm2/g
 
##### e- (100 MeV) in Water (density: 1 g/cm3 ;   radiation length: 36.0924 cm )

  Range cuts : 	 gamma        1 mm 	 e-        1 mm 
 Energy cuts : 	 gamma  2.93991 keV	 e-  349.408 keV
  Max_energy _transferable  : 50 MeV (19.7242 cm )

  processes :                	        eIoni		        eBrem		        total
  compCrossSectionPerVolume : 0.243373 cm^-1     0.377909 cm^-1	     0.621282 cm^-1
  cross section per volume : 0.243373 cm^-1	      0.37785 cm^-1	     0.621223 cm^-1
  cross section per mass   : 24.3373 mm2/g 	       37.785 mm2/g 	      62.1223 mm2/g 
  
  restricted dE/dx         : 1.74403 MeV/cm	      16.4212 eV/cm 	      1.74404 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)          : 1.74403 MeV*cm2/g    16.4212  eV*cm2/g	      1.74404 MeV*cm2/g
 
  unrestricted dE/dx       : 2.20304 MeV/cm	      2.43683 MeV/cm	      4.63987 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)          : 2.20304 MeV*cm2/g   2.43683 MeV*cm2/g	      4.63987 MeV*cm2/g
 
##### e- (1 GeV) in Water (density: 1 g/cm3 ;   radiation length: 36.0924 cm )
 Range cuts : 	 gamma        1 mm 	 e-        1 mm 
 Energy cuts : 	 gamma  2.93991 keV	 e-  349.408 keV
 Max_energy _transferable  : 500 MeV (76.8163 cm )

  processes :                	        eIoni		        eBrem		        total
  compCrossSectionPerVolume : 0.243809 cm^-1     0.36118 cm^-1	     0.604989 cm^-1
  cross section per volume : 0.243809 cm^-1	     0.361246 cm^-1	     0.605054 cm^-1
  cross section per mass   : 24.3809 mm2/g 	      36.1246 mm2/g 	      60.5054 mm2/g 
 
  restricted dE/dx         : 1.74398 MeV/cm	      0.18709 eV/cm 	      1.74398 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)          : 1.74398 MeV*cm2/g    0.18709  eV*cm2/g	      1.74398 MeV*cm2/g
 
  unrestricted dE/dx       : 2.39981 MeV/cm	      26.8941 MeV/cm	      29.2939 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)          : 2.39981 MeV*cm2/g   26.8941 MeV*cm2/g	      29.2939 MeV*cm2/g

Could you post a picture of your detector with 1 or few events ?

Thank you for the comment.

Mine is just a 1cm thick absorber using normal “B4c”. A track I can see is a initial particle only as shown in link below. I just would like to observe a typical de/dx distribution in water or scintillator.

If another information is necessary, please tell me. Since I can not solve this problem by myself, so I have to rely on you.
best regards.

I invite you to run TestEm5 with attached macro, with cut = 1 mm and 1 km, and, eventually, with visualisation.
And to realize the role of the leakage of secondary particles.
Em5.mac.txt (484 Bytes)

Dear Maire
Thank you for the comment. I will check Em5.

And to realize the role of the leakage of secondary particles.

I’m bit confusing. I would like to look dE/dx of a primary particle: energy deposit of the primary. The leakage of secondary particles is important to get the dE/dx of a primary??

In complement, it can help to have a look at
http://lappweb.in2p3.fr/~maire/tutorials/index.html

  • A general Introduction to Monte Carlo … : slides 19 → 24
  • A basic course. generalities : slide 10; and full chapter ionization

Thank you for the additional comments.
/
/

Although I have not read every slides,
Page10 seems to be important for my question.

Bremsstrahlung is handled as either continuous or discrete process
depending on both of (kinetic) energy of the 2ndary and
threshold energy “setCut” given by an user.

(kinetic) E of the 2ndary ≤ threshold energy
Bremsstrahlung → “continuous” E loss due to soft photons

(kinetic) E of the secondary > threshold energy
Bremsstrahlung → “discrete” hard photon emission
/
/
/

The reason I was observing no radiation loss in the water and scintillator is …

If processes are added like,
pmanager->AddProcess(new G4MultipleScattering, _-1, 1,1);
pmanager->AddProcess(new G4eIonisation, ______ -1, 2,2);
pmanager->AddProcess(new G4eBremsstrahlung, _ -1, 3,3);
and if energy threshold is too small,
2ndary due to eBrems is considered as a hard photon,
and E loss is included at the post step.
Even with high momentum, what I can see is small radiation lass

and if energy threshold is large ,
2ndary due to eBrems is considered as a soft photon,
and E loss is considered along the step.
With high momentum I can see radiation lass according to initial energy .
Am I correct?
/
/
/
/
/

“Restricted” and “Unrestricted” in a table below means
“Restricted” → soft photon ( E of the 2ndary ≤ threshold energy )
“Unrestricted → hard photon is also handled as a soft photon?

And, once increase the threshold, every eBrem is handled as a soft photon?

 e-  in Water (density: 1 g/cm3 ;   radiation length: 36.0924 cm )

 Range cuts :  gamma       1 mm 	 e-        1 mm 
 Energy cuts : gamma  2.93991 keV	 e-  349.408 keV

    processes :      eIoni		        eBrem		        total

# 10 MeV  
  restricted dE/dx   : 1.73377 MeV/cm    101.039 eV/cm       1.73387 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    : 1.73377 MeV*cm2/g 101.039  eV*cm2/g   1.73387 MeV*cm2/g
  unrestricted dE/dx : 1.99147 MeV/cm    181.698 keV/cm      2.17317 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    : 1.99147 MeV*cm2/g 181.698 keV*cm2/g   2.17317 MeV*cm2/g
# 1 GeV
  restricted dE/dx   :  1.74398 MeV/cm     0.18709 eV/cm      1.74398 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    :  1.74398 MeV*cm2/g  0.18709  eV*cm2/g  1.74398 MeV*cm2/g
  unrestricted dE/dx :  2.39981 MeV/cm     26.8941 MeV/cm     29.2939 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    :  2.39981 MeV*cm2/g  26.8941 MeV*cm2/g  29.2939 MeV*cm2/g


 Range cuts :    gamma        1 km 	 e-        1 km 
 Energy cuts : 	 gamma       10 GeV	 e-       10 GeV


# 10 MeV  
  restricted dE/dx   :   1.99147 MeV/cm     181.698 keV/cm	      2.17317 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    :   1.99147 MeV*cm2/g  181.698 keV*cm2/g	2.17317 MeV*cm2/g
  unrestricted dE/dx :   1.99147 MeV/cm     181.698 keV/cm	      2.17317 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    :   1.99147 MeV*cm2/g  181.698 keV*cm2/g	2.17317 MeV*cm2/g
# 1 GeV
  restricted dE/dx   :   2.39981 MeV/cm      26.8941 MeV/cm	      29.2939 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)    :   2.39981 MeV*cm2/g	 26.8941 MeV*cm2/g	29.2939 MeV*cm2/g 
  unrestricted dE/dx  :  2.39981 MeV/cm      26.8941 MeV/cm	      29.2939 MeV/cm
      (MeV/g/cm2)     :  2.39981 MeV*cm2/g	 26.8941 MeV*cm2/g	29.2939 MeV*cm2/g

I also checked behaviors of the secondary with setCut of 1 mm and 1 km as shown in a pic below where 10 events are generated for the both.

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setCut 1 mm:
Energy deposit of a primary seems to be too small even at high momentum as I reported in the past. But, I can see radiated gammas, and I can see a process like Compton Scattering: “e → gamma → e- + gamma”.

In fact, , brems is hundled. but dedx is 1.7 MeV for e- of 500 MeV in water

* G4Track Information:   Particle = e-,   Track ID = 1,   Parent ID = 0
*********************************************************************************************************

Step#    X(mm)    Y(mm)    Z(mm) KinE(MeV)  dE(MeV) StepLeng TrackLeng  NextVolume ProcName
    0        0        0      -12       500        0        0         0       World initStep
    1        0        0      -10       500  8.4e-26        2         2        Abso Transportation
    2        0        0    -0.01       498     1.66       10        12         Gap Transportation
    3 1.16e-05 6.44e-06 1.08e-16       498  0.00249     0.01        12        Abso Transportation
    4 0.000918 -1.78e-05     1.44       497    0.385     1.44      13.5        Abso eBrem
    5  0.00369 -0.00828       10       496     1.53     8.56        22         Gap Transportation
    6  0.00374 -0.00831       10       496  0.00111     0.01        22       World Transportation
    7   0.0151  -0.0141       12       496 8.39e-26        2        24  OutOfWorld Transportation

   Absorber: total energy: 3.575904989092408 MeV       total track length: 2.000012698153836 cm 

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setCut 1 km:
Energy deposit of a primary seems to be reasonable when comparing it with other many plots of dedx in water existing in WEB. However…, I can not see gamma radiation, and I can not see processes like Compton Scattering… I can see only the primary electron…

In fact, bremsstrahlung is not hundred… (@1/Feb.)

* G4Track Information:   Particle = e-,   Track ID = 1,   Parent ID = 0
*********************************************************************************************************

Step#    X(mm)    Y(mm)    Z(mm) KinE(MeV)  dE(MeV) StepLeng TrackLeng  NextVolume ProcName
    0        0        0      -12       500        0        0         0       World initStep
    1        0        0      -10       500  8.4e-26        2         2        Abso Transportation
    2        0        0    -0.01       487     12.7       10        12         Gap Transportation
    3 1.19e-05  6.6e-06 1.08e-16       487   0.0108     0.01        12        Abso Transportation
    4   0.0114  0.00681       10       465       22       10        22         Gap Transportation
    5   0.0114  0.00677       10       465  0.00881     0.01        22       World Transportation
    6  0.00877 -0.00228       12       465 8.36e-26        2        24  OutOfWorld Transportation

   Absorber: total energy: 34.76002329385038 MeV       total track length: 2.000015923042318 cm 

Soft gamma radiation is not handled as gamma?? I mean, trajectory is probably ignored (as mentioned in user tutorial), in this case, I can not simulate EM-shower in water or scintillator??

So, there is no way to establish both of the reasonable dedx and gamma radiation??

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EmTest18 looks fine as far as looking summary. But, it is not consistent with track info…
_

 Material : Water
 Range cuts        :  gamma  1 mm           e-  1 mm           e+  1 mm  proton 1 mm 
 Energy thresholds :  gamma  2.94056 keV    e-  351.877 keV    e+  342.545 keV proton 100 keV

*********************************************************************************************************
* G4Track Information:   Particle = e-,   Track ID = 1,   Parent ID = 0
*********************************************************************************************************

Step#      X         Y         Z        KineE    dEStep   StepLeng  TrakLeng    Volume     Process
0     -5 mm    352 um   3.69 mm    500 MeV     0 eV      0 fm      0 fm      Water   initStep
1    998 um    352 um   3.69 mm    481 MeV  1.06 MeV     6 mm      6 mm      Water        eBrem
2      5 mm    352 um   3.69 mm    481 MeV   594 keV     4 mm      1 cm      Water   OutOfWorld
 
 ===========================================================
The run was 1 e- of 500 MeV through 1 cm  of Water (density: 1 g/cm3 )
 ===========================================================

 TrackLength= 1 cm 	 nb of steps= 2  stepSize= 5 mm 

 d-rays  : eLoss/primary= 0 eV 	  nb of d-rays= 0  <Tkin>= 0 eV   Tmin= 2.8802e+295 J    Tmax= 0 eV 

<Brems>
 gamma   : eLoss/primary= 17.577 MeV	  nb of gammas= 1  <Tkin>= 17.577 MeV  Tmin= 17.577 MeV  Tmax= 17.577 MeV

<Ionize>
 deposit : eLoss/primary= 1.6536 MeV	 <dEcut > table= 1.7446 MeV   ---> simul/reference= 0.94784

 total   : eLoss/primary= 19.231 MeV	 <dEfull> table= 15.357 MeV   ---> simul/reference= 1.2523

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OK, to get dedx of the primary, I also have to get energy of 2ndary like

//energy spectrum of secondaries
//
G4double energy = track->GetKineticEnergy();
G4bool charged = (track->GetDefinition()->GetPDGCharge() != 0.);

Dear maire

Thanks to your hints, I finally reached what I want to get.
Below is dedx for e, mu, and proton in water with EM0, EM18, and B4c

I’ll close this question.

I am glad te see your plots.
In the mean time, I prepared a short summary, which becomes obsolete for you. But I post it anyway, as it may help future beginners.
ref : General introduction to Monte Carlo transport codes, slides 19-20.
https://lappweb.in2p3.fr/~maire/tutorials/MCintroduction.pdf

The 2 quantities have the same origin : differential cross section. They are not independent :
restricted dE + Tkin of secondary particles = total energy lost by primary particle, eg. unrestricted dE

Particles below Tcut are never created. They are accounted as energy lost by primary, eg. restricted dE.
Hence, always Tkin >= Tcut.
If Tcut >= Tmax (maximum energy transferable in the collision), there are no secondaries created and restricted dE = unrestricted dE

An additional complication comes from leakage. Once created, secondary particles travel and can escape the layer. If so, their deposited energy in layer is smaller than their initial kinetic energy (Tkin).

All those things are well (?) explicited in printouts of TestEm0, TestEm5, TestEm18.

hello

I want to ask whether we can obtain such graph of dose vs Kinetic energy using B1 Example. What I tried is Basically getting the dose value in each event and each event contains 100 ions which I’m gonna throw using particle Gun. Where am I going wrong ??
How to obtain such plots ?? How to get the Kinetic energy corresponding to dose ?? Let’s suppose if we have 100 protons for each event … Then How should I proceed?